Failing Children - Audio of Telephone Conference Shiur#1 of Account 2 failing children and family

Audio on Failing Children

Failing Children and Failing Families - New Telephone Conference May 31 Sunday 9:30 PM details below

This Sunday night telephone conference has different dial-up and code numbers than our Wed night telephone conference. The Wed night 9:30 program continues regarding halacha of Even Hoezer. But the Sunday conference is a new topic with new dial and code numbers. It is about failing children and failing families.

The new Sunday 9:30 program beginning May 31 is about failing children and failing families. Leading educators have said that each year things get worse. And yet, nobody is doing much about it. A few people are doing things or have good ideas how to improve things, and we want people to know the problems and how to avoid them.

To join the Sunday night at 9:30 PM telephone conference dial 641-715-3580 then enter code 198771#

The regular Wed 9:30 program
Dial 605-562-3130 then code 411161#

Why are we making this program for failing children?
A leading educator told me that he has taught school about thirty years. And every year more and more children are unable to succeed in school and may face a life of problems chas vishalom. Originally 2 out of 25 children had problems succeeding in school, and now the number has shot up close to triple that amount. Let us try to understand the problem and see how to improve things.

Audio of Shiur #9 - What is the Authority of Beth Din?

Audio of Shiur#9 - What is the Authority Behind a  Beth DIn?

Click below for audio at  http://torahtimes.com/2015/05/28/audio-shiur9-authority-of-beth-din/

Audio for Shiur#9 The Authority of Beth Din

Shiur #9 – What Beth Din is Empowered to Coerce a GET?

Telephone conference shiur #9 What Beth Din may Coerce a GET? May 27 9:30 PM call 605-562-3130 add code 411161#

Shiur #9 – What Beth Din is Empowered to Coerce a GET?

1.       We have previously discussed when a Beth Din may coerce a GET. Now we want to go into the power of any Beth Din, how they are authorized by the Torah to make a coerced GET.

2.       Gemora Gittin 88b: “Abayeh found Rav Yosef sitting and coercing husbands to divorce their wives with a GET. He said to him, ‘But we are plain people [meaning the rabbis in Babylonia  did not get the ancient Semicha and therefore are not MUMCHIM.] Rashi explains that in those days rabbis in Israel did receive the ancient Semicha that began with Moshe Rabbeinu and were therefore authorized by the Torah to fulfill all judicial functions necessary such as coercing a GET when appropriate. But Rav Yosef was in Babylonia, and the rabbis there did not receive this Semicha. So by whose authority did Rav Yosef coerce a GET?

3.       Rav Yosef replied, “We are messengers of the rabbis who got Semicha.”

4.        Tosfose there  D”H bimilso dishechicha explains, “We do the work assigned to us by the earlier generations [who had Semicha] in Israel.”

5.       We see from this that the entire capacity to coerce a GET and fulfill other functions of a dayan today  is because we received permission to do this from earlier generations in Israel who had semicha.

6.       Furthermore, the gemora says that we are not authorized by the early generations of Semuchim to fulfill the functions of a Torah Dayan in all things, only in those things that are common. But why is this? Why did the earlier generations grant permission for us to fulfill the will of the Torah with Semicha only with what is common to us?

7.       Perhaps this itself that the permission is not total reminds us that our status is not that of real Semuchim. We may only function according to the command of the earlier Semuchim. The earlier generations of Semuchim were the greatest of their time. And they passed on this Semicha to Babylonia and other countries who had no Semicha only if the rabbis there were very prominent scholars, the cream of the rabbinate. This means that today coercing a husband is a right only of the greatest rabbis. Not long ago a letter from the major Gedolim in Israel said the same thing. But their letter was a response to coerced Gittin from people who are not true scholars or who differ with the Shulchan Aruch. But besides these considerations, we may also assume that the permission given by earlier Musmochim applied only to great rabbis. If so, those who are not great and coerce a GET have made an invalid GET.

8.       In fact, see the Tosfose HaRid on the gemora above Gittin 88. He deduces from Bovo Basro that coercing to  divorce a wife is only effective because “it is a mitzvah to obey the sages.” Obviously, the power of coercion is only given to such rabbis who are considered by everyone, even one who has to be beaten to fulfill the Torah, as authorities. The Beth Din not universally recognized as great sages, may produce invalid Gittin. Did the earlier semuchim, the greatest rabbis, give permission for plain rabbis to fulfill the roll previously given only to the greatest rabbis? Probably not.

9.       Chasam Sofer in his teshuvose on Even Hoezer in two places 28 and 116 says that if the husband knows that two authorities differ whether or not the husband should be beaten, and then the husband is beaten and says, “I want the GET” because of that beating, the GET the husband gives is invalid by the Torah. This is because the husband only gives a proper GET under a beating when he accepts the rabbis as the true authorities to speak for the Torah. But if he knows there are those who disagree with the Beth Din that orders coercion, he does not accept them or their coercion and the GET is invalid, and the children born from it are mamzerim.

10.     A letter from Israeli gedolim, Reb Chaim Kanievsky, Reb Nissim Karelitz, Reb Nosson Kupshitz, Reb Chaim Mahyer HaLevi Wosner, and the late Gaon Rav Shmuel HaLevi Wosner published in the book Mishpetei Yisroel, together with other very  prominent signers, warns that today there are rabbinic courts that make invalid Gittin, and that everyone must beware of marrying a woman with a GET from them.

11..    Posek HaDor HaGaon Rav Yosef Shalom Elyashev zt”l told me that any Beth Din that flouts the Shulchan Aruch that he takes away from them “Chezkas Beth Din.” They lose the status of a Beth Din.  It is highly possible that this is not just a decree of today’s rabbis to protect against some rabbis who don’t know the halacha properly. It is based upon the permission granted the generations after Semicha to practice coercions of Gittin, etc. The earlier Semuchim did not want everyone coercing Gittin, only those who are the senior rabbis of the generation, or who work with the permission of the senior rabbis of the generation.

 12.      The process of our doing the Dayan work entrusted to us by the earlier Semuchim, how does it work? Nesivose in Choshen Mishpot 1:1 says that the Torah gave the rabbis the power to give latter generations the capacity of Dayanuse, and the Torah allowed the rabbis, the earlier ones, to decide what kind of things can be adjudicated in latter generations. Thus, the work of the latter rabbis is valid by the Torah.

    13.   The Nesivose says that the Ramban and the Rashbo disagree and consider the Dayanuse done today has no base in the Torah, as we are not Semuchim. But it is valid by the power of the rabbonon. However, if the greatest rabbis in the world such as Rav Wosner zt”l and others of his class wrote a letter forbidding ordinary rabbis to force a GET, perhaps the original permission for latter rabbis to give a GET is violated because the original permission was only for great rabbis to make coercions.

 14.    Tosfose Sandhedrin 2b bottom of page says that although the Torah gave permission for judges to adjudicate it was necessary for the Torah to bring another passage to prove that judges can coerce Gittin. The Ketsose Choshen Mishpot 3 says that permission to coerce was given only to the seventy sages who together with Moshe controlled the Jewish people. Thus, to coerce we need very senior rabbis, the greatest in the world, they or their express permission.

 15.      In New York State a law was passed to force a husband to give a GET when the marriage is over. Such a GET forced by the government is invalid. Threats to the husband to take away money, custody of his children, jail, humiliation, produces an invalid GET. A woman married with an invalid GET has children that are possibly mamzerim.

 16.     In the next generation many children will be born from such Gittin and may be mamzerim. Some rabbis such as the ones who made the GET will consider them fine, and others, such as the above Gedolim, will consider them likely to be mamzerim. Klal Yisroel will be split in two.

 17.     If anyone has a problem with a GET, such as those who got a get from Epstein, a flagrant violator of the most basic teachings of the Shulchan Aruch, should not remarry with such a GET, and should contact people who can attempt to deal with the situation.

       Basically, such people must immediately get a GET from a respected Beth Din.

    18.   If they cannot get another GET they must contact a respected Beth Din to see what can be done. Sometimes, a Beth Din can determine that the Sofer and the Witnesses were kosher people and that the GET was kosher, even if it was done in a Beth Din of those who disagree with the Shulchan Aruch.

   19.   The Beth Din must determine the status of the mother and the status of the children born from the invalid GET. Are the children mamzerim? It is easier to help the children than the mother. A doubtful mamzer is much less of a sin than a doubtful wife, and a doubt of a mamzer is different than other Torah doubts. See Sheb Shematso I:1. But only a prominent Beth Din should be involved with this. Who would marry the woman or her children if a prominent Beth Din did not approve of their marrying?

  20.   The Beth Din may determine that despite being forced the husband decided to give a GET willingly.  See Chazon Ish Even Hoezer Gittin 99:3 that if a husband is forced but finally decides on his own and not because of the coercion to give a GET it is kosher. But an experienced Beth Din must rule on this.

     The laws of GET Meusoh are complex and there are various opinions. This requires a prominent Beth Din.

Audio of Shiur 8 - More on Negating a Marriage Because of Blemishes

Audio of Shiur 8 - More on Negating a Marriage because of Blemishes is at www.torahtimes.com. You can go there and select the audio's window on the top line or click the link below.

Audio of Shiur 8 - More on Negating a Marriage because of Blemishes

Shiur #8 of Telephone Conference - More on Negation of Marriage Because of a Blemish Wed 9:30 PM

Shiur #8 Telephone Conference – More on Negation of Marriage  because of a Blemish

Wed May 20  9:30 PM – Call 605-562-3130 then enter code 411161#

1.       We discussed in Shiur #7 last week that HaGaon Reb Moshe Feinstein is lenient but many Gedolim are strict about whether a major blemish negates a marriage. Today we want to look into this further.

2.       Gemora Kesubose 57b -  A woman is an Aruso, married to a man, but stays in her father’s house until the Chupa, when she becomes a NISUO, fully married.  If it is discovered that the Arusa has a major blemish, the marriage is negated. See Rashi there.

3.       This would seem to be a proof to Reb Moshe that a serious blemish can negate a marriage. However, this is only about an Arusa, but perhaps once someone has Chupah the conditions for negating marriage are themselves negated, as we discussed last week at length. See Shulchan Aruch EH 38:35,36 and Yevomose 107. A pious Jew does not want to have relations with a woman without marriage, and he cancels his conditions.

4.       Tosfose Kesubose 72b ד"ה על מנת  writes that even though the gemora says that a blemish can negate the marriage, the gemora in Kesubose 73b brings two opinions. One is that the woman’s marriage is negated and turns into a doubtful marriage, and she needs a GET. The other opinion is that the Torah permits her, but the rabbis require a GET. The Rosh 72b says that the opinion that it is a doubt is a sin diorayso to remarry without a GET and Tosfose Kesubos 72b  ד:ה על מנת says the same thing.

5.       If so, a marriage negated can still require a GET. Bais HaLevi and Ain Yitschok disagree with Reb Moshe  as he quotes in Igeres Moshe EH I:79:1. Ayin Yitschok of the Kovneh Rov I:34:7:44 quotes those who forbid her remarriage as the Chavass Yoir, Besomim Rosh, Rashbatz and Shevuse Yaacov. Thus, the gemora and the many authorities who forbid the remarriage based on a blemish would prevent a woman from remarrying even if her husband has a major blemish, even if there is a possibility that the marriage is negated, as is taught in Kesubose 73b.

6.       The gemora Kesubose 73b says that a woman who has a blemish of nedorim that a husband doesn’t tolerate, and therefore by the Torah the marriage is negated as the husband did not know this before he married her, nonetheless, Rabo holds that she needs a GET by rabbinical law. Rovo says that there is a doubt in the Torah itself if she needs a GET in such a case. Thus, even if the marriage is blemished, she needs a GET.

7.       Reb Yosef ben Leib considered the rebbe of the Bais Yosef writes in volume II:19:3 that the custom of rabbis is when rabbis argue about if a woman can remarry that even if a majority of rabbis permit her to remarry, if a minority forbid it, we are stringent and the woman cannot remarry. In a case of a person with a blemish, the majority of rabbis forbid a woman to remarry, and in that case, surely the woman has a problem remarrying.

8.       Tosfose there in Kesubose 72b says that some blemishes require a GET and some do not. Tosfose mentions the blemish of EILENUSE [whereby a woman can have biah but cannot have children, as she has a blemish in her entire system and is not like other women] does not need a GET. But other blemishes do not free the woman without a GET.

9.       Some rishonim hold that even when the husband did not know that she is an Eilunes, and he discovers that she is, even though this is a serious blemish, she needs a GET.

10.   Rambam Ishuse 4:10 – If one makes kiddushin whether the man is a Serise Chamo or Seris Odom, and so with an Eilenuse who is married with Kiddushin [Erusin] these are complete marriages [the couple is married by Torah law].

11.   Magid Mishneh quotes on the above Rambam that Rabbeinu Tam ruled that an Eilunes who was not known to be one and married with Erusin, that she needs a GET.

12.   Rambam Ishus 24:2 “One who marries a woman and does not know her blemish and she turns out to be an Eilunes, she does not get a Kesubo nor does she get the Conditions of a Kesubo, but extra gifts from the husband to his wife she does keep.”

13.   Rambam ISHUS 7:8 One who makes kiddushin [erusin] to a woman, and it is discovered that she has a blemish that render a woman unfit or one of the oaths that she made renders her unfit, and afterwards he discovers that she has this blemish, the marriage is a doubt if it is negated [because he did not make a clear condition].”

14.   From this we see that if the husband or wife did not make a clear condition and then it is discovered that they have a bad blemish, the marriage is a doubt, maybe it is negated, maybe not, and she needs a GET and without it she cannot marry.

15.   The Magid Mishneh explains that the Rambam paskens like Rovo that if it is discovered after the Kiddushin that the woman has a bad blemish it is a doubt and she requires a GET to remarry. The gemora there says clearly that she needs a GET if no specific condition was made to negate the marriage if she had this problem.

16.   This again is a proof that even in serious blemishes we don’t allow the woman to remarry without a GET, and many poskim hold like that, not like Reb Moshe.

17.   Rambam rules Ishuse 7:23 that if a man made a condition in Erusin that he did not want a wife with certain blemishes, and the wife had them, the marriage is negated. But if afterwards  he married her with Chupah or took her to his house and they were together and then he did not make a condition, the woman is married and she needs a GET. Thus, even if there is proof that Erusin is negated by a blemish, if there is Nisuin the conditions may be negated and the woman needs a GET. Thus all people who want to negate a marriage because of a blemish, if they did not make a clear condition before the Chupa, they are married and the wife needs a GET. How does this agree with Reb Moshe’s lenient negation of marriages, that seem to mean even if they were married a few years and maybe even if they had children, the marriage is negated?

18.   The Meiri Kesubose 72b D “H “One who marries a woman, etc.” says that when a man marries a woman who has the blemishes of oaths that men don’t tolerate, and he did not know about them, the marriage is negated and no GET is needed. This is a proof to Reb Moshe that a strong blemish negates the marriage.

19.   Reb Moshe and Chelkas Mechokake EH 39:9 say that the woman must immediately leave the marriage if she discovers a major blemish in the husband. But how do we know that she did leave immediately?

20.   Thus, the issue of a blemish to negate a marriage has various aspects and opinions. The majority who discuss this do not permit the woman to remarry without a GET. Then we have the opinion of Rosfose Kesubose 72b that it may depend on the level of blemish. If so, who can determine what the thoughts of Chazal were in considering this?

21.   The latest assaults on Shulchan Aruch by people who are inventing new ways to free a married woman based on some invention in defiance of the Shulchan Aruch, are far away from the ideas taught here. 

Audio of Telephone Conference #7 Negation of Marriage without a GET?

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Audio of tele-conference #7 Negation of Marriage without a GET?

Telephone Conference #7 Negation of Marriage without a GET

Telephone Conference Shiur #7 -  Negating a Marriage without a GET

Shiur on Wednesday night 9:30 May 13 – Call 605-562-3130 then enter code 411161#

1.       HaGaon Reb Moshe Feinstein in EH IV:52 writes that if a woman marries and finds out that the husband has a great defect, that the marriage can be negated without a GET. Cases are that the husband cannot have BIAH, or the husband is a Shoteh.

2.       In EH IV:113 Reb Moshe permits the wife to remarry if her husband is discovered to be strongly involved in homosexuality. But this only applies if the wife, immediately upon learning about her husband’s problem left him and did not return.

3.       However, “If it is impossible to get a GET from him we permit her to remarry, but if it is possible to get a GET from him we must do everything possible to get the GET.”

4.       But why is there such a need to get a GET that everything possible, such as paying large sums of money, must be invoked? And the answer is, that it is extremely rare to find a Rov who permits a married woman to remarry without a GET, and even Reb Moshe commands us to get a GET at any cost, if possible

5.       Also, Reb Moshe in EH I:79:1 brings from the Beis HaLevi Simon 3 and the Kovneh Rov, AIN YITSCHOK 24:6 and BIARE YITSCHOK 4:3, Gedolei hador in the time of the Chofetz Chaim who were are not sure that the marriage is negated by a great Mum or blemish.

6.       The Kovneh Rov brings in AYIN YITSCHOK I:EH 24:7:44 that some authorities feel that there is a doubt whether if there is a great defect the marriage is negated: Chavass Yoir, the Besomim Rosh, Rashbatz and Shevuse Yaacov did not want to permit remarriage without a GET. If so many great authorities were not sure of the halacha with a great blemish and refuse to permit the wife to remarry, Reb Moshe took upon himself to permit this. But this does not mean that we do this as we see that the majority of the great authorities from previous generations did not consider the woman free to remarry.

7.       Reb Yosef ben Leib, considered by some the rebbe of Rebbe Yosef Karo, writes in volume two IV:19:3, Regarding a woman remarrying when she may be forbidden to do this, we are stringent and forbid this, even if most authorities permit it.” What if most or all other authorities forbid it? That is the situation with Reb Moshe’s opinion about permitting a woman to remarry when nobody agrees with him. But there is another problem with this heter.

8.        Reb Moshe  himself says that the person who wants to cancel the marriage can only do so when the great blemish is discovered and immediately, without delay, the person leaves the house and has nothing to do with the blemished person. This is found in Chelkas Mechokake EH 39:9.

9.       My question is: Let us assume that a blemish does permit a woman to be free of the marriage. But who knows that the wife immediately fled from the husband? Of course, now, hours or days or weeks later,  she may have decided to leave. But if she delayed even by a small span of time, she is not free. And is it not likely that the woman was in a great state of shock and struggled to think things over. Leave? Maybe yes, maybe not. Perhaps being alone is worse. What would people say? Who will support me? What will the children say? How will the children ever marry if people know that their father was an active  homosexual? What if the wife wants to  straighten out her bank account that has large sums that if she has a few days can be in her favor, but if she just runs away, she may lose everything? What is the halacha about that? Who takes the responsibility to say it is not a problem?

10.   Another problem is one I learned the hard way. I once needed a GET from somebody who would not allow a rabbi into his office. Reb Moshe had a teshuva permitting making the GET. A rabbi agreed to do the GET on the condition that he personally not give a document that the woman was properly divorced. Rather, he would write that according to Reb Moshe the GET was kosher. At that, I called Reb Moshe’s gabei and was told, “Just because it says that in the Teshuva sefer, does that mean that we do it?” I was stunned and just hung up. I called up Reb Aivigder Miller zt”l who told me, “Reb Moshe became stricter later in life and regretted some decisions he had made in earlier times. When the world was a complete disaster Reb Moshe felt he had to be very lenient. But as the word got frumer Reb Moshe pulled back.

11.   If so, who says that anyone should do what Reb Moshe permits in this case when all rabbonim disagree with him?

12.   I heard from the assistant to Rav Henkin, Rabbi Margolin, a similar thing. We used to doven in the same shull and we would talk. He told me that he constantly asked Rav Henkin to put out his teshuvose, because he was the posek hador in America before Reb Moshe, and he had a huge amount of teshuvose. But Rav Henkin refused. He felt that his teshuvose were for a lost generation, and he hoped that better times would come when his teshuvose were not appropriate.

13.   If so, when we find an incredible chidush from Reb Moshe, who says something that nobody else in the world accepts, and what the greatest authorities discuss in depth and reject Reb Moshe’s leniency, who can go release a woman from a marriage and have her remarry and have children after that? Probably, there is a serious doubt if Reb Moshe himself would continue to hold this opinion. And even if he does maintain his leniency, how can we permit a woman to remarry when all of the great rabbis who discussed this refused to permit her to remarry? And how do we know that she really left immediately when finding out the problem with the husband?

14.   Another problem. A marriage made with the understanding that it will only be viable if such and such are done. Or a marriage that is only viable if a person does not have a certain problem. If the condition is not fulfilled do we cancel the marriage? If the marriage was made with ERUSIN alone, only giving a ring, for instance, and the condition is not fulfilled, the marriage is off. But if the couple had CHUPAH or intimacy, the condition may be cancelled. See Shulchan Aruch EH 38:35.

15.    “One who makes ERUSIN with a condition [that cancels the marriage if the condition is not fulfilled],  but has relations with his wife without mentioning the condition,  [and the condition is not fulfilled seemingly canceling the marriage] she needs a GET [meaning she is married despite the condition that cancelled the marriage] even though the condition was not fulfilled.  We suspect that he negated the condition when he had relations with her or brought her into his home. Ramo – And if somebody else marries her she needs a GET from both of them.” We see from this that even when somebody says he will marry only if a certain condition is fulfilled, and the condition is not fulfilled, if he has relations or CHUPAH with his wife, we fear that he negated his conditions. This could be because “nobody wants to have marital relations that are zenuse.” See also EH 38:36 at the end that she is married after the intimacy and he must give her a KESUBO even if the condition for the marriage is not fulfilled.

16.   Thus although if somebody makes a condition to marry and the condition is not fulfilled the marriage is off, that only applies to ERUSIN, without CHUPAH or BIAH. But if somebody makes a condition that only with this condition is there a marriage and then there is CHUPAH or intimacy, there is a serious question if the condition is negated by the CHUPAH or intimacy. Because once a person has CHUPAH or intimacy and still presses the condition, the marriage is off. And the CHUPAH and intimacy were outside of a marriage, or Zenuse. Therefore, it is quite possible that any condition made for ERUSIN is negated upon CHUPAH or intimacy. But a woman married with CHUPAH or intimacy, even if we would normally assume that no man or woman would accept such a blemish in marriage, this is only prior to CHUPAH. But once there is CHUPAH conditions are negated so that the intimacy is not Zenuse. If so, in all cases where the marriage is negated because of a MUM or serious problem, once there was CHUPAH it is possible that the marriage is still viable to prevent BIAS ZENUSE.

17.   See Yevomose 107 “Nobody makes his intimacy Zenuse” and “a marriage made with certain conditions, those conditions are negated when the couple is together” means basically that the marriage with CHUPAH survives the requirement of conditions. This is a complicated topic but surely it is not a simple thing to free a woman who is married to somebody who has a great blemish MUM, especially as other than Reb Moshe nobody permits it, and everyone forbids it. And, as I mentioned earlier, Reb Moshe’s teshuvose often contain material that he personally refused to permit in later years. Perhaps this is one of them.

18.   It is a tragedy that in Philadelphia we have Roshei Yeshiva who encourage a woman to remarry without a GET, even though I am going to publicize that her remarriage is AISHESS ISH and her children from the second “husband” are mamzerim. Whoever permits this married woman to remarry without a GET deserves NIDUI. 

Audio Kabbala on the Diminishing of the Moon and Suffering

Audio file from Rabbi Dovid E. Eidensohn on the strangest teaching in the Talmud and Medrash, G-d's confrontation with the Moon at Creation.

Click on the link below to go to torahtimes.com, and then click on audio file about Moon.

Audio File on Diminishing the Moon

Telephone conference Marriage Recognized and Not Recognized by the Torah

Telephone Shiur #6 Wed night 9:30 PM    5/6/15   Call 605-562-3130 then code 411161#

Marriage Recognized and Not Recognized by the Torah  

  Rabbi Dovid E. Eidensohn/845-578-1917

1.       What kind of marriage is recognized by the Torah?

2.       When a Jew gives a ring or valuable object to a Jewish woman and says “you are mekudeshes to me” or a similar phrase, the woman is married to the man. EH 27:1. Marriage can also be created by giving a document of marriage to the woman and she accepts it, and it says that she is mekudeshes to the man who gave her the document EH 31:1. Also, if the husband has marital relations with a Jewish woman with intent to marry they are married EH33:1. Two Orthodox witnesses must witness any act of Kiddushin EH 27:2; 31:1; 33:1.  

3.       If witnesses know that a Jew and a Jewess are together and having marital relations, and we know that they were once married but now are divorced, we assume that their being together in front of witnesses or with the knowledge of kosher witnesses is an act of marriage and they are married EH 149:5.

4.       But if the two were not originally married and then divorced, we assume that the two intended not marriage but Zenuse and there is no marriage. Shulchan Aruch Even Hoezer 149:5.

5.       If a husband and wife are together in a community where marriage is often not established by Torah ritual but by governmental or social style, and the people probably consider themselves married, either because they are ignorant of the Torah or deny the Torah or ignore the Torah, we have a problem if kosher witnesses knew of them.

6.       The Gadol of America, Rav Yosef Eliyohu Henkin zt”l, wrote in Lev Ivro that when two Jews marry in a secular ceremony but they consider it marriage, or the type of secular marriage has a name, civil marriage, that indicates marriage and not Zenuse, we assume that they are married. (Lev Ivro page 12). Reb Moshe Feinstein zt”l disagrees EH IV:81. This is also a machlokess between the Ragetshover who is machmir and HaGaon Reb Yonoson Shteif who says the custom is to be lenient,  see Teshuvose Rav Shteif #118.

7.       If the husband and wife make a two ring ceremony, it would seem that both share in the act of Kiddushin, which could result in no Torah marriage at all. On the other hand, maybe the wife knows that her mother married with one ring, and she wants to give a ring only to be modern, but without violating the basic idea of Torah kiddushin. Reb Moshe Feinstein zt”l wrote in Even Hoezer IV:13:4 that in such a case the couple must be told by the rabbi that the marriage is when the husband gives the ring, and the wife may give the ring only after she is married by the husband’s giving of the ring, as a celebration of the previous act of marriage. But if this was not done, Reb Moshe does not know what to say, because who knows what the couple was thinking?

8.       Also in the time of Rav Henkin even secular people recognized the role of the male as being the head of the house and the woman he married came into his possession. Therefore, any kind of “marriage” would satisfy the Torah requirements. But today with gender wars and the women insisting on being equal to men “marriage” means not what the Torah calls Kiddushin, when the wife is possessed by the husband, but rather a partnership. If so, the “partnership” marriage does not create Torah marriage.

9.       Because of this, couples without kosher Kiddushin living together in New York or other areas where Orthodox Jews live and the couple has a de facto marriage without Kiddushin, we have a problem if by Torah law they are married. If they are married and broke up without a GET, we have a problem if the woman can remarry without a GET. And if she does remarry without a GET, we have a problem if the children are mamzerim.

1 .   A woman in order to gain entrance to a country pretends to marry a man who is a citizen of that country,  and she stays in his house, so that they both appear as man and wife. The man makes a condition he will do the woman a favor so she can enter the country, but she must stay in his house for three months and then she must leave and they will separate. Reb Moshe says she is not married by Torah standards. Igeres Moshe EV VI:112

1.   A woman is married to a man in a Reform ceremony. The man and his ancestors were Reform. Reb Moshe Feinstein zt”l in Igeres Moshe IV:75 says that there is no marriage. In that case the couple was together a short time and were not in a neighborhood with frumeh Yidden. Yet Reb Moshe says that if possible a GET should be given. But if this is not possible he permits the woman to remarry without a GET.

1.   A woman wanted to marry a Kohen but she is a divorcee. So she went to a Reform rabbi and married the Kohen. Reb Moshe says that she is not married to the Kohen because the Reform marriage is not a marriage. And if there are Orthodox people who know that they live together there may be kiddushin from biah, but that only applies to Orthodox people who don’t want to live with Zenuse. But people who go to Reform don’t  have compunctions with what we call Zenuse. So there is no marriage, because those who are hefker regarding Torah and mitsvose have no reluctance to make a Biah of Zenuse. Igeres Moshe IV:76.

1 .   In Igeres Moshe IV:77 Reb Moshe makes it clear that Reform people don’t make a ceremony of marriage acceptable to the Torah and they are deniers so that even Rav Henkin who considers civil marriage a Torah marriage would agree that this does not apply to Reform deniers of the Torah.

1    In Igeres Moshe IV:78 Reb Moshe says that a goy who is converted by a Conservative rabbi who is mechalel Shabbos who marries a Jewish woman with such a rabbi, she is not married. Rabbis known to be kofrim make invalid marriages and are invalid witnesses so she is not married.

1.   A woman who met a man and they married in civil court where there were no Orthodox witnesses and stayed together only a few days. She is not married as no Orthodox witnesses knew they were together. Igeres Moshe IV:80

1.   A Russian woman married there at a time when the government treated marriage as an easily broken thing and the government itself sometimes breaks up a marriage to serve the government. If the woman wants to be frum we can clarify what happened and find a reason to permit her to remarry. But if she won’t be frum we don’t  have to help her get married and live in sin. Igeres Moshe IV:81.

1.   See Reb Yonosan Shteif zt”l in his teshuvose207 is a Pilegesh permitted or forbidden. A Yevomo LaShuk who is a pilegesh is this permitted? See  his  teshuva at length forbidding a Yevoma LaShuk to be a pilegesh.

1.   A woman finds out that her husband is a mumar. Is this kiddushei toose? See Reb Yonosan Shteif 103. See degrees of Mumar in teshuvose Yam Shel Shlomo #41 that perhaps applies in this case also. See also Ayin Yitschok I:24 about mekach yoose in marriage.

1.   If somebody is married and takes another woman without kiddushin, and she stopped going to the Mikvah, and this goes on for many years, when she leaves the man, does she need a GET? Tsemach Tsedek from Lubavitch EH I:138 has lengthy discussion of this. He does not say a definite thing but concludes that there are proofs to be lenient. This is about a Pilegesh if she needs a GET.

  .  Regarding Pilegesh see Shulchan Aruch Even Hoezer 13:7: “A Pilegesh who lives only with one man who wants to marry somebody else must wait ninety days.” From this it seems that she does not need a GET because it only demands a delay of ninety days. The Gro there #19 says that she wants to have children. That is, they are married in practice if not with Kiddushin. And it would seem that there is no need of a GET as this is not mentioned. See Even Hoezer 26:1 a machlokess about Pilegesh forbidden or permitted.

  .   A husband is discovered to have a terrible fault such as being unable to have intimacy, we try to get a GET from him. If that is impossible, there is a great discussion in the Poskim. See Igeres Moshe EH1:80 at the end there his lenient opinion, and the opinion of the Gaon of Kovna in Ayin Yitschok EH 24 and Bare Yitschok 4 that this might be forbidden dirabonon.

2    Let us conclude that there is a great difference of opinion regarding many Jewish marriages, if they are valid or if people need a GET in order to remarry. We have previously discussed the issues of forcing husbands to give a GET that could make mamzerim.

2     It is a time to learn Even Hoezer, and each day, it is more important to learn Even Hoezer.

Audio of telephone conference on a forced GET

click below and see www.torahtimes.com with many windows that hold posts. Click on the window on torahtimes.com that holds the post of Audio of telephone conference on a forced GET.

Audio of telephone conference on a forced GET




When you see the post with the audio about forcing a GET on torahtimes.com, click on the audio so it plays.

Telephone Conference Shiur #5 - Beth Din Coerces a GET

Telephone Conference Shiur #5 -  Beth Din Coerces a GET

1.       Even Hoezer 77 paragraphs 2 and 3 make it clear that in general it is forbidden to coerce a husband to divorce his wife despite her demands and protests. And yet there are some times when a husband can be forced to divorce his wife, such as when it is forbidden to live with a relative see EH 154.

2.       Even Hoezer 1:3 should we force somebody over twenty years old to marry? Shulchan Aruch says yes and Ramo says the custom is not to force people in choosing a mate in marriage even if they are not doing the mitzvah properly. See the Gro there #9,#10 seems to approve of forcing people to fulfill the mitzvah not like the Ramo but like the Shulchan Aruch. Here forcing a mitzvah is permitted by some authorities, but forcing a GET is  in general not permitted.

3.       See Ramo in Shulchan Aruch EH I:10 a man marries two wives can we force him to divorce one. Two opinions in Ramo. Here two wives is a sinful marriage because of Cherem Rabbeinu Gershon not to marry two wives. And in a sinful marriage a divorce can be forced.

4.       When the Shulchan Aruch rarely approves of forcing a husband to give a GET, how does this work? Today there are no mumchim. See gemora Gittin 88b. See also Choshen Mishpot beginning of Simon 1 in Nesivose, Tumim, and Ketsose in Simon 3.

5.       Chazon Ish Gittin 99:2 when Beth Din mistakenly tells the husband he must give a GET and that is not the law, the GET is invalid for two reasons min haTorah. Thus a Beth Din has no power to force a GET when the Shulchan Aruch says the husband in that case cannot be forced. And if the Beth Din paskens without forcing the husband and the husband gives the GET the GET is invalid and the children are mamzerim diorayso.

6.        What  was the power of the Geonim to permit forcing a husband in defiance of the gemoras that clearly indicate that a husband in most cases cannot be forced to divorce? Tosfose Rid Gittin 89a based on gemora Bovo Basra מצוה לשמוע לדברי חכמים. What does this mean?

7.       See also Tosfose Kesubose 63b AVOL discussion at length about coercing a GET.

8.       Did the Geonim permit always to force a GET when the wife demands it, or was this a temporary ruling that is not applicable today? A machlokess HaRishonim in this see Ramban and Baal HaMoor on the Rif Kesubose 63b.

9.       What is the authority of a Rov or a Beth Din to teach people the halacha and to insist that they obey? See Rashbo in Teshuva I:253.

Book Secret of the Cherubin first 3 chapters

Book on Cherubin

Rabbi Dovid E. Eidensohn

Secret of the Cherubin -  Chapter One

In the Holy Temple and the Tabernacle of Sinai there were various rooms and courtyards, some holier than others. The highest sanctity was in the inner sanctum, the Holy of Holies. In the Holy of Holies was the Holy Ark. Inside the Holy Ark were the Tablets Moses brought down from Mount Sinai and a Torah scroll. On top of the Holy Ark were decorative images of winged angels in the guise of a boy and girl, called the Cherubin.

The Ark contained a Torah scroll and the Tablets of Moses. Why did the Cherubin stand atop the Ark and its holy treasures?

The holy work Tano Divei Eliyohu or The Yeshiva of Eliyohu HaNovi begins with the idea that the Cherubin preceded all of the Creation of Genesis. It continues to say that Derech Erets, meaning proper character traits, precedes the Tree of Life and the Torah. This is essentially the famous saying, “Derech Erets precedes the Torah.” Derech Erets is how we relate to others and to ourselves, and how our personality and human processes operate. Thus, the Cherubin represented the purity of humanity ready to learn and obey the Torah. A Jew devoted to Torah but whose personality is flawed cannot achieve a proper level of Torah.

But there is another aspect of the Cherubin mentioned there. The book Tano Divei Eliyohu begins with “And He drove the man out” of the Garden of Eden after the sin of Adam and Eve. “And He established the Cherubin in front of the Garden of Eden” to prevent people from entering the Garden. With the Cherubin was “a sharply bladed sword that twisted.” Thus, the Cherubin are avenging angels.

The Cherubin are avenging angels who appear in the guise of children, a boy and a girl. This is amazing. Do children become avenging angels? But a purity of heart that merits a purity of Torah cannot tolerate evil. It struggles to maintain the purity of the Holy of Holies and whatever Torah level is has achieved. This battle is a constant and mighty battle, requiring great efforts and wisdom. Those who seek the Garden of Eden and higher holiness battle with an angelic evil force, the Satan, and inner biological and ego issues that require much planning and patience. The great rabbis warn us that if we seek to go too high we can fall. The weapon we use is a “blade of a twisting sword.” We must know when to go higher and when to accept our present level. To err is to be in danger. And we must constantly pray for divine assistance, because how can a mortal filled with evil forces succeed?

The highest level of Derech Erets is in proper and loving marital intimacy. Thus the Cherubin, representing Derech Erets, are boy and girl. This symbolizes marital relations, the highest level of Derech Erets, as a pure and innocent love.

The Torah and the Cherubin represent Torah and Derech Erets, or how to observe the Torah in human relations. But the Cherubin are more than simply the idea of relating to other people. The Cherubin represent the incredible concept of G‑d, alone in His Self, who sought to relate to others. We cannot approach the depth of this properly without the wisdom of G‑d which we lack. But we must appreciate it.

We must emulate G‑d. We must seek to relate to others. We must connect to others, and respect them, even if by so doing we may denigrate our own honor and glory. The world is filled with denial of the Truth and Torah. Yet it is G‑d's wish to make such a world in order that people can accept challenge and merit reward. Relating to others is more important than we can imagine. We, each of us, are more important than we can imagine. So we must remind ourselves of our importance, and yet, we must work on modesty. The sword is sharp but it turns and twists, up and down. Truly, life is a “ladder standing on the ground, and its top is in the heavens.” But if we don’t do things properly we can fall off of the ladder. And when we fall, the higher we were, the greater is the damage from the fall.

Thus, the Cherubin, boy and girl together, represent several important teachings. Through them we understand somewhat why HaShem created people. First of all, the Cherubin were innocent and pure, and therefore Cherubin in Aramaic, means “children.” Thus, we must strive for purity. Purity means many things, but it surely means we must relate to others without envy and hate. It is possible that relating to others without envy or hate is the hardest command in the Torah. The Second Temple was destroyed because of vain hatred.

Another lesson in the idea of Cherubin being “children” male and female is that Adam was created alone until he discovered, “it is not good for a man to be alone.” Then HaShem created Eve. Adam and Eve then had children and the world is their progeny. But marriage is a “twisting sword.” On the one hand marriage may be the highest level of humanity. It requires a supreme Derech Erets for two different people to marry. And the biological passions associated with childbirth threaten us constantly with evil thoughts that easily lead to sin. We are always struggling with these opposite poles of humanity. But the Cherubin, boy and girl, represent the idea that humans can struggle towards the ideal and the goal of purity in a world of the opposite. For this was a person created. And when a person tries to be pure, heavenly forces embrace and encourage him. If he fails and sin, evil forces embrace and destroy him.

The Holy of Holies teaches us that despite the evil in the world and in all of us, we must recall the possibility of the highest purity as indicated with the Cherubin astride the Ark.

Reb Yisroel Salanter founded the Musar Movement to emphasize Derech Erets and proper social and personal behavior. He said that it is easier to master the Talmud than to purify one bad character trait. Great is our burden. But the Torah and the heavenly realm are there to empower us to succeed.

King Saul, the tallest of the Jews in his time, was a mighty warrior and the king of Israel, the first king. And yet, we are told, “Saul was as a one year old child” in his purity. How could this be? Because the Cherubin teach us that life is to have temptations of ego and illicit desire and to fight them. Saul merited being as pure as a child without the hate and illicit desires that deprive people of holiness.

The great challenges of life are not in the Torah and its commands, because one twisted with hate will twist the Torah. One who has a pure heart and a pure mind and only such a person can learn Torah properly. Thus, Torah without Cherubin is a mortal danger. But when we seek Torah and Derech Erets, the Torah that we learn is pure.

The Zohar accepts that marriage and having children are done using the Evil Inclination within us. But it must be a servant and not the manager. As a servant, it creates lovely children with lofty souls. As a manager it destroys.

Thus, the Cherubin, boy and girl, represent human relations at its purest level. This includes marital relations that elevate a person as perhaps nothing else.

All of us outside of the Garden of Eden struggle to find goodness. But our world is saturated with biological and spiritual forces that threaten Torah values. When we struggle with darkness a light comes from the highest heavens to help us. The supreme achievement is to achieve purity similar to that of young children. This is the teaching of the Cherubin.

Chapter Two

Cherubins Stand on the Ark in the Temple

Why did the Cherubin stand on the Ark containing the Holy Torah and the Sacred Tablets? But Cherubins were baby-faced angels of kindness but could also be avenging angels. Anyone who entered the Holy of Holies and did not belong there would deal with the Cherubins. To know how to behave with kindness or attack requires a knowledge of Torah. Thus, the Cherubin stood upon the Torah to be guided.

It is very easy, and happens frequently, that somebody does something very wrong because he thinks  he is doing a good deed. This is especially prevalent in family as we will discuss.

Light and Darkness

 “And it was evening and it was morning, one day.” G‑d created the world with both light and darkness. The physical world has light and darkness, day and night. And the spiritual world has light and darkness, goodness and evil.

The physical world after sunset and before sunrise has periods of confusion. It is in between day and night but seems to be neither. This “between the sun’s rising or setting” has no clear status as day or night. The spiritual world also has light and obvious goodness, and it has darkness and obvious evil. It also has things that are confusing. We are not sure if it is good or bad, or both, or what.

Thus, the Cherubin, angels, stand on the Holy Ark in the Holy of Holies. Sometimes the Cherubin are as baby-faced loving children. And sometimes they are avenging angels. Rooted in Torah, the Cherubin know what to do, when do be kind and when destructive.

How do we apply this to our lives?

The Cherubin, boy and girl, represented purity in marriage, perhaps the greatest mortal level. Marriage is a very special and holy level, but it also requires elements that can go in the other direction. It is very difficult to know what to do, even to know what is right and what is wrong. Let us take some examples.

Much of marriage goes in opposite directions. For instance, Rambam tells  us that the husband must honor his wife more than himself, and that the wife must treat her husband as if he was a great officer. That is very nice. But what about when the husband feels that he is the one who makes Kiddush and learns Torah and explains halacha, not the wife. And what if the wife feels that she is the one who is entrusted with holding a baby until birth and raising it, while the husband is outside of the home, doing things that may be less important in the long run than creating good people.

What if the husband points out to his wife that he is the one who learns and teaches Torah. And the wife rejoins that the Zohar teaches that the first word in the Torah is בראשית whose letters are בית ראש meaning “the house is primary.” Who is right? Who is wrong?

In my work Secret of the Scale we talk about this at length, and we want to discuss these matters again and add some more material. But our point here is simply that marriage is a time of confusion. And the Cherubin remind us that we must be rooted in Torah, “standing on the Ark” in order to proceed.

The Gaon Reb Shlomo Zalman Aurebach lost his wife in his old age. He came to the funeral and refused to ask his wife publicly for forgiveness. People came to him and questioned this. It is the Jewish custom to be forgiveness at that time. Reb Shlomo Zalman answered, “I never did anything to displease her. So why should I ask her forgiveness.” Here is a great Gaon and a great Tsadik. But to be married fifty years and never aggravate your wife? That is something special. It might also be very unusual.

The great conflict in marriage is not the conflict of Torah and the house. It is the conflict of two people who are very different in many ways. How can the live together for fifty years with never a wrong word? That is the power of Torah. And even those who do have Torah rarely achieve it. As Reb Yisroel Salanter said, “It is easier to master the Talmud than to master one bad character trait.”

One thing I learn from the Cherubin is that to stand astride the Ark and do the right thing you have to be an angel. What does that do for me? I don’t know if it does anything for me. But it does tell me to get to work. And “one who comes to purify himself merits heavenly help.” Yes, there is heavenly help. And yes, there are angels. And we need help constantly.

But I have a more practical path. We will discuss this in chapter Three. It is called, “Shalom Bayis Beth Din,” an idea approved by Gedolei HaDor that could really make a dent in the broken marriages we see today.

Chapter Three - Shalom Bayis Beth Din

The Gaon Rav Mayer Mintz zt”l once told me the following. A Jew did such a terrible sin that nobody ever heard of a Jew doing such a thing. They went to a rabbi who told them, “I don’t know why the Jew did such a thing, but this I know. He did it to serve HaShem.” That is, we are limited in our evil-doing when we know we are doing wrong. Perhaps we were overwhelmed by anger or desire and do something we know is wrong. But if we know it is wrong, we have to limit the scope of the evil. If, however, we are convinced that the evil deed is not evil but a good deed, a mitzvah, why should we refrain from doing it completely?

We have in family the best and the worst. The best is when people marry and try their best to succeed. But as time goes on, and the problems multiply, there may be a different atmosphere in the home. Eventually, somebody says something and the other spouse is very offended. Words are exchanged. A coldness pervades the home. Relatives sense it and are told the complaints. From then, it is downhill. As the bitterness becomes public knowledge, certain types intervene and encourage the worst. And the worst does happen. Finally, somebody may want a divorce. And the other spouse refuses. This leads to war. Hate and destruction rain down on the house and the children and cause terrible pain to the couple. It may never end and it may constantly get worse and worse. Why? Because the warring people are sure that they are the righteous one, and the other one is the evil one. So why not destroy an evil person?

Enter Shalom Bayis Beth Din.

Shalom Bayis Beth Din is not a Beth Din to deal with divorce and giving a GET. Shalom Bayis Beth Din never deals with a GET as it is only there to assure Shalom Bayis. How does it work?

The task of Shalom Bayis Beth Din is one, to educate about how to behave in a marriage. This education can begin before the wedding, even long before it. I once told a prominent therapist that education for marriage should begin at the age of three, he countered that the latest scientific evidence is that the education should begin much earlier than that, before gestation! At any rate, the earlier the better.

Shalom Bayis Beth Din is there to deal with any arguments or differences of opinion in the marriage, to extinguish the sparks of war before they really ignite. How is this done?

First of all, Shalom Bayis Beth very strongly urges a couple never to discuss their complaints with relatives and friends. Those personally inclined towards relatives and friends and can make a bad marriage worse. We even have idealistic people who seek opportunities to “enlighten” married people about the “benefit” of a war against the other spouse.

Secondly, when told of a complaint, Shalom Bayis Beth Din listens carefully, but deals with the complaint to limit it so that it doesn’t become the great excuse to make war and hideous horrors in the house.

Third of all, when it seems that somebody wants a divorce, we follow the advice of the great Gaon and expert in personal matters, Rebbe Yaacov Kaminetsky, who told a Rov: “Ask her if her husband would be good enough for a zivuge shaynee.”

Until now Shalom Bayis Beth Din is only voluntary. But if the family has no great worry about disobeying the Shalom Bayis Beth Din, there are times when the pain and passion overcome all reason. Therefore, the couple when it approaches Shalom Bayis Beth Din, is given an option of pledging in writing, in a document valid in American law, that the couple will obey the ruling of the Shalom Bayis Beth Din not to do this or to do that. And if they Beth Din is not obeyed, the Beth Din has a right to fine the spouse who defies it.

In such a situation, if the spouse continues, say, to beat his wife, and the fines multiply, the person may realize that he cannot control himself (which is common) and he realizes that he will lose a lot of money, because the Beth Din has a legal document that requires the fine to be paid. At that point, he may decide to agree on a GET, to save himself the fines. This is not a GET Meuoso, a forced GET. I have discussed this with great authorities. The fine is not to give as GET. The opposite is true. The fine is to make Shalom Bayis and sustain the marriage. But the only escape for one who cannot control himself is a GET. This hopefully will limit the amount of women who are refused a GET.

A prominent Gaon of the past generation told me that he never saw a husband who beat his wife stop beating his wife. He said it is a sickness. If so, the fine could convince the husband to divorce. But this is not the purpose of the Beth Din nor does it want to deal with divorces. Better that another Beth Din deal with divorce. But if there is nobody else to take care of it, someone worthy will decide whether the Shalom Bayis Beth Din should get involved with a GET. But again, the Shalom Bayis Beth Din is only there to make Shalom Bayis and does not talk about GET in any way to encourage it. Of course, it could mention that if the fights keep getting worse every day that who knows, it may end up a divorce. But the Beth Din does not in any way shape or form encourage a GET. If the husband or wife want a GET, again, it is better that another Beth Din deal with it. And if only the Beth Din should be able to succeed with the GET, a worthy person must decide what to do.

An important part of Shalom Bayis Din’s activities is teaching about intimacy. There are hideous problems from marriages that are destroyed by frumkeit regarding intimacy. There are unbelievable sins when there is not a happy functioning intimacy in the house. We hope to discuss this in more detail later on.

A man had been fighting terribly with his wife and were separated many years without a GET. I read him a few lines in the Shulchan Aruch. He jumped up and said, “I need a wife.” If people could read the Shulchan Aruch, if they realized the true halacha of how to behave in marriage, so many marriages would succeed. But today, there is great ignorance across the board about the laws of marriage and divorce.

The Cherubin stand asride the Torah, because everything depends on the halacha. Every marriage should also stand astride the Shulchan Aruch, because only when people know the halacha and obey it can we really hope for a successful marriage.

Shalom Bayis Beth Din is a project of the Jewish Outreach Congregation, which is heavily involved in education about marriage and divorce. We will deal with this in the coming chapter, Chapter Four Teaching the Laws of Marriage, Family and Divorce.

Chapter Four – Laws of Marriage, Family and Divorce

We have mentioned above that the Cherubin had faces of children, to symbolize purity. They were boy and girl to indicate the holiness of marriage and family. And they stood astride the Holy Ark with the Torah of Moshe inside along with the Tablets from HaShem and Sinai, to show that we must root ourselves always in halacha as taught in the Torah. When people know the laws of marriage, family and divorce, there is hope. When people don’t know the laws of marriage, family and divorce, there are problems.

Today there are terrible problems. Jewish Outreach Congregation has been working hard the past years to rectify the terrible ignorance about these sacred laws. I spoke at length to the posek hador HaGaon Rav Yosef Shalom Elyashev of Jerusalem zt”l about these problems, and he encouraged me to struggle against the ignorance and worse that is going on today. (not completed)